PIERRE WOODMAN wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:02 am

Im sorry but there is nothing strange about forced conscription when your nation is being invaded.

True it has always been like that in all world !!!

Most invaders from history give the chance to surrender peacefully. When Hitler attacked Russia. Russia could have saved so many lives by surrendering but they did not. They sacrificed huge numbers to keep their freedom. Spartans are remembered for their heroic resistance also.

True also !!!

In any case you can't compare Putin and Hitler because they have completly different motivations.
I have always said and still think if Putin wanted invade Ukrain he will never have wait 22 years or even 14 if we consider the Crimea in 2014. If you look at all in detail it happened always after a specific action from West countries.
I'm not trying defend Putin, I am against wars, but I am not blind like sadly many people want to be ...


PW

It's one thing to defend its country for a chance of freedom, and there's completely different thing to fight for a lost cause and send people to their death with no chance of winning. I repeat, Ukraine would have stayed free and independent had it stopped murdering its people and hadn't tried to get into NATO and EU. The main condition of Ukrainian independence in the first place was neutral status, which it's trying to violate. Here's the result. Mark my words, Russia will win this conflict, and not because I support it or believe in it, it's just how it's gonna go. I'll be here when you see that

Ukraine would have stayed free and independent had it stopped murdering its people and hadn't tried to get into NATO and EU.

I think the same but at same time why Ukrain can't decide with who they want do what ( I don't speak about killing people inside the country but about NATO and EU ) ???
As a Russian sister it's obvious Putin can't accept it and see that at been betrayed by his own blood but if we are looking on a democratic aspect it should not be a reason to kill so many people in both camps !!!

PW

https://www.liberation.fr/checknews/hol ... N4BETVAJA/

ahahahaahah ben oui on le sait tous mais peu de gens veulent l'admettre !!!

PW

BlackSon wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:14 am

It's one thing to defend its country for a chance of freedom, and there's completely different thing to fight for a lost cause and send people to their death with no chance of winning. I repeat, Ukraine would have stayed free and independent had it stopped murdering its people and hadn't tried to get into NATO and EU. The main condition of Ukrainian independence in the first place was neutral status, which it's trying to violate. Here's the result. Mark my words, Russia will win this conflict, and not because I support it or believe in it, it's just how it's gonna go. I'll be here when you see that

You are right about everything, but you are wasting your time because you can't explain anything here, let alone prove it. I myself have stopped actively participating in this topic because I have realised the futility of the exercise.
The first one says that Ukraine's motives are almost like a war of independence. It is very funny, if it were not so sad. Only he forgot that from the beginning Poroshenko, then Zelensky, said that not people, but "specimens" live in Dombass, and that they don't need those "specimens", they need the territories of Dombass. Nor does he say that pushing Ukrainians to be slaughtered as cannon fodder" is forced by the US and EU, because they need Russia's strategic defeat, as they themselves say. They don't care about Ukraine or what happens to it. The Ukrainians, like the Indians, are offered beads that they will be taken to NATO or the EU someday, but no one will ever take them there. And this is something that unfortunately most Ukrainians don't understand. And Ukraine lost its independence a long time ago because the Ukrainian regime does not run the state.

The other, all the time pretending to be a pacifist. Except that a resident of Donetsk is not concerned about pacifism, since 2014 and since then, I haven't heard any pacifism from the West either...

vks022 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:32 am

.... and now Wagner chief as similarly put doubt on Russias objectives in this war.

Prigozhin is a businessman, not a military man and with big ambitions. In the army, and especially in a wartime army, there must be order and unity of command, otherwise there will be anarchy. Prigozhin, on the wave of uncontested heroic successes of his "Wagner" group in liberating Artemivsk (Bakhmut), fell into a kind of euphoria and failed to cope with the so-called "copper pipes", that is, with the glory, and thought that now he could do anything he liked, besides having his own private army. Prigozhin was pointed this out to him by the Russian Defence Ministry, so he took offence at them and decided to stage a demarche in the hope that Putin would support him, given their long acquaintance. In my opinion he has done a great folly. He was not supported by any military leader operating in the zone of special military operation and he was sharply condemned for his actions. Putin also did not support him in the dispute with the Ministry of Defence. That is why it all ended so quickly. I personally know many members of the Wagner PMC, all of them heroic fellows, and they all told me that it was a personal gamble of Prigozhin and some of his cronies. The situation is unpleasant in any case, but it only served as another inoculation against internal turmoil in the country and united the people even more. Now most of the Wagnerians are signing a contract with the Ministry of Defence.
Prigozhin, on emotion, said all sorts of nonsense and populist rhetoric, which he himself refuted, what he said recently about the losses in Artemivsk (Bakhmut) of his group and the several times greater losses of the Ukrainian army.

PIERRE WOODMAN wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:02 am

Most invaders from history give the chance to surrender peacefully. When Hitler attacked Russia. Russia could have saved so many lives by surrendering but they did not. They sacrificed huge numbers to keep their freedom. Spartans are remembered for their heroic resistance also.

True also !!!

PW

Read the archival document - Hitler's master plan "Ost" and find out what Hitler planned to do with the occupied territories of Poland and the Soviet Union and the people living in these territories and don't write any more blatant nonsense.

I at no point said that Hitler was comparable to Putin. Clearly his intentions were genocidal whereas Putins are not. So not sure what this nonsense you speak of is. My point was most countries that have the ability will fight for their freedom if attacked by foreign armies. You shouldnt expect surrender. I only brought up Hitler because thats the last time Russia was attacked.

Putins mistake was that Nato would not back Ukraine. Clearly without support Ukraine would have capitulated already. Now you have America commited and you know from the past that they dont back down easy. Neither do Russia. So this is just one big mess with no easy solution. And many precious lives will be lost on both sides. A much bigger number of Russians than the ethnic Russians killed inside Ukraine before this invasion.

vks022 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:13 pm

I at no point said that Hitler was comparable to Putin. Clearly his intentions were genocidal whereas Putins are not. So not sure what this nonsense you speak of is. My point was most countries that have the ability will fight for their freedom if attacked by foreign armies. You shouldnt expect surrender. I only brought up Hitler because thats the last time Russia was attacked.

Putins mistake was that Nato would not back Ukraine. Clearly without support Ukraine would have capitulated already. Now you have America commited and you know from the past that they dont back down easy. Neither do Russia. So this is just one big mess with no easy solution. And many precious lives will be lost on both sides. A much bigger number of Russians than the ethnic Russians killed inside Ukraine before this invasion.

Oh, but they (Americans) do, with such an impression. Remember how they lost Vietnam? Or how after 20 years they left Afghanistan and abandoned people? This is what's gonna happen to the Ukrainian government

Yeah I said they dont back down easy. They spent a huge amount of time and money on those wars you mentioned. Yes they stopped eventually and we can both agree it would be a very sad situation for Ukraine and Russia if history repeated.

As things stand their military industrial complex just sees it as more custom. Ukraine and Russian lives will be lost. Maybe you believe this will change.

How come that "Creampie" guy hasn't come down here to lecture everyone about what the absolute truth is, who's evil and who's virtuous, and what we should be allowed to comment.

If I could, I would like to spend a few days in both Ukraine and Russia, to know first-hand how people there are living their realities, hear a few of them speak and then form my own opiniuon accordingly. When my country was in conflict, and I had to read people from the outside report on it, I realized the above would be the only way for someone to make a solid judgment of current political events.

Thank you MVitaly5 for your clear explaination about Wagner. At least I can say now we have a serious vision about what happened while the journalist in France just say bullshit.

I sincerely hope this war will end up. I'm so tired of all the pain it brings everywhere ...

PW